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Steel string and French Polish
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=5212		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Wes McMillian [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:50 am ]
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I always hear about the bias against FP and steel strings and sorta bought into it myself, having just sprayed nitro on my #1. But has anyone seen the DIY Network series that shows Lynn Dudenbostel doing - gasp! - a FP on a bluegrass dread! Can it be?

Check this out...
The Dude's FP

I guess if the Dude can get by with it, maybe the rest of us can relax our bias a little. I mean, you don't get a two-lifetime waiting list for nothing. (Go ahead and order, your grandkids may get one... ) You don't get much more biased than the BG crowd. Except maybe the classical bunch.

I'm happy with the nitro so far and don't know if I'll change, but I can see myself trying it in my future.
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:53 am ]
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WES, WHAT YOU TALKIN BOUT DUDE...THERE'S A LOT OF US HERE THAT F.P. IN FACT I THINK ALOT OF US THAT PREFER IT!
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:07 am ]
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I know the general factory built guitar buying public is bias toward lacqure finishes but the people in the know are aware that FP is among the best acoustic finishes, as well as the easiest to repair. This is twice in a month that we have heard the bias rumor about French polish. Truthfully, amoung discriminating hand-crafted guitar buyers,I do not think there is the bias. Most still want a high gloss but that is no issue with FP. Hummm where is all this bias coming from? Beats the heck out of me.
Author:  Wes McMillian [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:38 am ]
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OK, maybe I should reword that a little. It seems BLUEGRASSERS expect a shiny nitro finish. After all, if Martin did it, it has to be right, right?

I'm sure you guys who build those girlie fingerstyle guitars can get by whatever you want

The guy in one my local guitar shops loves to cuss what he calls the "Bluegrass Nazis" who play big strings, high action and "come in with those Mexican pesos ground into picks".

Long live bluegrass, real men play mediums!

Hope I haven't gone over the line here. Wait till I post picks of my SITKA/Mahogany BLUEGRASS DREAD! (Three cuss words in one sentence, hope I don't get banned here!)
Author:  Mark Tripp [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:48 am ]
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I have this and Dude's mandolin segments recorded. I noticed for both instruments, he sprays a washcoat of shellac, then brushes several coats of varnish, finally finishing up with FP. He comments in the mandolin segment, that the old Loars were finished this way - with FP over the top of OIL based varnish. Anyone have experience with this process, or know what brand of varnish is being used?

-Mark

Author:  Mike Mahar [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:20 am ]
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It does seem to be true that most indie luthiers don't build dreadnaughts. In the commercial market dreads out sell all other acoustic guitar types combined. If the bluegrass community wants Martin D-18s and D-28s, why should a small luthier want to make copies when the buyers want a genuine Martin? That doesn't mean that the Bluegrass market is closed, Mario Proulx seems to have a customer base that is rich in bluegrass players. So there does seem to be room to some custom guitars there.

If the bluegrass crowed is such a slave to fashion, there exists a great market opportunity. If it suddenly becomes "in" for bluegrass players to play custom guitars, then the demand for them could skyrocket. (Keep your fingers crossed but don't hold your breath).

French polish can be very shiny and most players couldn't tell the difference between it and nitro or some of the good water based. Shellack is, however, soluable in alcohol and that makes it a poor choice for a bluegrass festival. (old joke. What's the difference between a violin and a fiddle?   The violin doesn't have beer spilled on it.) No finish seems to stand up to DEET bug spray and the luthiers I've spoken to talk about putting exceptions into their warranty about finishes and bug spray.
Author:  arvey [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:20 am ]
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I have yet to run accross this "Bias against French Polish" among steel string guitar players. I only see it among the builders. All my guitars are french polished, even my resonators and no one has ever expressed concern about this, only interest. I do a lot of our door festivals and my demos get handled by sweaty, smelly, Sunscreaned, deet covered players and I have been amazed at how well they stand up. Sure I provide Wipes for people to use but I don't make a big deal out of it. As a matter of fact at last years winnipeg Folk festival the other luthiers had Nitro on their guitars and my french polish seemed to stand up better to the deet then the Nitro did. There is a bias I believe, but it is held in the mind of Luthiers more than anywhere els.
Author:  Mark Tripp [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:50 am ]
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So nobody has any info on the FP over varnish technique?

Dang!

-Mark
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:07 am ]
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[QUOTE=Mark Tripp] So nobody has any info on the FP over varnish technique?

Dang!

-Mark
[/QUOTE]
When I say that DYI show I noticed that he did that and remember thinking that I'd never seen that before. I do know that some violin repair guys will FP over the violing varnish but that this is very controversial. (Everything wrt violins is controversial)
Author:  CarltonM [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:13 am ]
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[QUOTE=Mike Mahar]I do know that some violin repair guys will FP over the violing varnish but that this is very controversial. (Everything wrt violins is controversial)[/QUOTE]

I'm only guessing here, but I bet they use shellac because it's completely reversable, without affecting the original varnish. It will also protect the existing varnish. Them's all good things!
Author:  Mark Tripp [ Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:39 am ]
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But isn't violin varnish usually spirit varnish(shellac, alcohol, and other resins)and not oil based varnish? If so then FP over it would be very compatible, but if it is oil varnish, well, I guess I'm wondering what the pitfalls and/or benefits would be to this process. Is Dude just doing this because that's how the old Gibsons were done, or is there some beneficial tonal quality to it?

I've heard that FP is tonally superior to other finishes, but fairly fragile. Does the oil varnish/FP process provide a level of durability/protection that FP alone cannot, while minimally impacting the tone of the instrument?

I'm very curious about this...

-Mark
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:29 am ]
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From what I understand the varnish on bowed instruments has definite
sound damping characteristics -more "oil" content and more flexibility-,
something that's usually avoided on plucked instruments.
I do not find shellac generally more fragile than other finishes, although it is
definitely more "chemically" fragile and remains a bit softer for some weeks
before it cures completely. Maybe the varnish provides an additional
protection to the wood underneath and shellac is used for its higher gloss.
BTW I just successfully FP (finally…) with the Zinsser ready-made FP shellac.
I added 25% alcohol to the mix and that made it much easier to FP. Whatever
lubricant they add to the mix (parafin I think) gives the finish a bit of
cloudiness, or milkiness and I won't be using it again. Just thought I'd
mention it for those tempted.laurent38773.479375
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